Are There Different Paths to the Same God?

Published on December 8, 2004 By iamheather In Philosophy

While reading Christmas-Why do we celebrate it like we do on KarmaGirl's blog, I noticed that the comment section turned into a partial discussion on pathways to God. Some bloggers believed only through "Jesus" could someone reach salvation or God. Others thought multiple pathways lead to the same end result of God .

I am currently reading a book titled, The History of God by Karen Armstrong. Her writing and study is challenging, but highly pertinent and fascinating. This discussion reminded me of an insightful paragraph in Armstrong's book. As a precursor to a hopefully interesting and lively discussion, I will post the excerpt here.

"The human idea of God has a history, since it has always meant something slightly different to each group of people who have used it at various points of time. The idea of God formed in one generation by one set of human beings could be meaningless in another. Indeed, the statement 'I believe in God' has no objective meaning, as such, but like any other statement only means something in context, when proclaimed by a particular community. Consequently there is no one unchanging idea contained in the word 'God'; instead, the word contains a whole spectrum of meanings, some of which are contradictory or even mutually exclusive. Had the notion of God not had this flexibility, it would not have survived to become one of the great human ideas.

When one conception of God has ceased to have meaning or relevance, it has been quietly discarded and replaced by a new theology. A fundamentalist would deny this, since fundamentalism is antihistorical: it believes that Abraham, Moses and the later prophets all experienced their God in exactly the same way as people do today. Yet if we look at our three religions [Judaism, Christianity, and Islam], it becomes clear that there is no objective view of 'God': each generation has to create the image of God that works for it.

The same is true of atheism. The statement 'I do not believe in God' has meant something slightly different at each period of history. The people who have been dubbed 'atheists' over the years have always denied a particular conception of the divine. Is the 'God' who is rejected by atheists today, the God of the patriarchs, the God of the prophets, the God of the philosophers, the God of the mystics or the God of the eighteenth-centurey deists? All these deities have been venerated as the God of the Bible and the Koran by Jews, Christians and Muslims at various points of their history. We shall see that they are very different from one another.

Atheism has often been a transitional state: thus Jews, Christians and Muslims were all called 'atheists' by their pagan contemporaries because they had adopted a revolutionary notion of divinity and transcendence. Is modern atheism a similar denial of a 'God' which is no longer adequate to the problems of our time?"

*note the paragraph breaks are my own, added for ease of reading on this blog. In the book, this is one paragraph.

Comments (Page 4)

iamheather

on Dec 13, 2004

I think if you ask any child I teach or have taught, from the most tattooed-up gangsta to the most precious shy & softpoken to the pre-law overachievers -- "What does she say? Does she live it?" They'd tell you YES a thousand times over "Because she cares about me." I walk in each day knowing I might be the only person who tells that kid they're cared for, they're loved, they were missed the day before, they can do it, their achievements matter, and their soul matters. I drive home knowing I might be the only person praying for that kid. This weight sits upon my chest heavily until I give it over to the only One big enough to lift it. And I've seen lives changed; I've seen His intervention where you'd have denied a possibility existed. I take no credit or glory -- this is all the work of the Holy One I worship. And yes, He is the only way to heaven -- as Paul asks, "how will they know if we don't tell them?" I believe in seeing beyond a person's outside (and outward behavior) to their soul in need of redemption.I respect your right to disagree but plese don't try to discredit what I said by simply calling it a name, reducing it to a straw-man, and walking away just because you dislike the fact I'm secure in what I believe.

Amazing and inspiring, Shulamite. Thank you for doing the Lord's work and His will.

Dr. Guy

But he is (or she is) about to become a psychologist, and must always denigrate that which does not fit into their philosphy.

Or at the very least, they denigrate that which may heal their patients, and thus strain their paycheck........

Daniel Barnhoorn

on Dec 14, 2004

Just something that stuck in my head after reading this:

Is modern atheism a similar denial of a 'God' which is no longer adequate to the problems of our time?

I'd say it isn't, because that would imply that there is something to deny. That's almost like saying you don't want to believe.

Dr Guy

on Dec 14, 2004

I'd say it isn't, because that would imply that there is something to deny. That's almost like saying you don't want to believe.

Kind of an oxymoron too, when you look at it that way. If modern atheism is a backlash against a god, then it cant be atheism as at the core would be a belief of a god, just not in its omnipotence.

imajinit

on Dec 14, 2004

I've been studying (yes I mean studying) the Bible, moral philosophy, theology, and apologetics for years. Yeah, I know how to form the words for what my heart knows to be true -- that's all. My life is different because of my relationship with God and that relationship is one of grace, undeserved. I'm no longer a child of satan (I think that is the point just being discussed above) and I'm able to see things with spiritual eyes that are open instead of eyes that belong to the hard-hearted being I'm prone to be.

Shulamite - I'll go ahead and admit that I was a little harsh in my response, and the choice of words that I used in making a reply to what you had to say. After serious consideration, I've come to the conclusion that you remind me of my step-mom (are you her?)... You strike me as someone who has to tell anyone and everyone that you meet about all the glorious things that God has done for you, and how we all need to turn our lives over to Jesus. If you are like my step-mom, then you never noticed their (the people you're talking to) eyes rolling back into their heads. Even some true believers don't want to hear about God every single time that we have a conversation. Sure we're here to glorify Him, but that doesn't mean that every waking moment of every day we're to talk about Him. Or perhaps you're not like that at all... I don't know you personally, so far be it from me to make ASSumptions about the kind of person you are.

Having said all that, please allow me to explain a little further. I too have studied... not to the extent that you have, but enough to be able to form an educated opinion. I was taught in school that there are 4 ways to study the scripture. (Critical, Historical, Exegetical, and Theological)... I'm listing them for the benefit of anyone else who may be reading this, since I know that you are already aware of them. Your first response seemed to me to be from a historical point of view. The reason I made the comment about you 'missing the boat' is because I don't feel like that's the approach that should be taken in a discussion like this. (I know, who am I to make claims on what's ok and whats not ok)... The discussion was, 'is there more than one path to the same God?' Your answer was the standard Christian answer of 'no'... In my experience, that seems to be what turns people off about organized religion... from the moment you walk in the door of a new church, or talk to someone who's been a Christian for a long time, they immediately tell you all about how you have to accept Jesus into your heart so you can be saved. That is important, and it may be the most important thing, but I don't necessarily think it has to be the first thing covered. I believe that's something that people have to come to on their own (see Brad's "faith in God" thread)... it's not something that should be forced down people's throats right from the get-go. What if Christians led by example? What if they were out in the community making a difference, thus causing people to want to find out what 'the secret' is?

Your second response was more of a Theological one... you outlined how you are walking the walk and talking the talk. I respect what you're doing a whole lot more after reading that, and I think you're an exception to my comment about us failing as a global society. So thanks for doing what you do.

I think this discussion was originally looking at the various religions from a critical point of view... (that doesn't mean that we were criticizing them all, or pointing out their faults)... for someone to come along and state with absolute certainty that "My religion is the RIGHT one" is silly to say the least. Someone riding the fence might know happy Christians, but they might know happy Buddhists too... which will they choose? the one that insists that their's is the only way?

Guy & Heather - I'm not "about to become a psychologist"... I'm about to get my degree in psychology... I'm still in the active duty Air Force. So don't worry about me trying to make sure that my patients stay mentally ill so I can get rich. I'm just sure that your comments were warranted, and that I strike you as the kind of man that would do something like that. Thank you.

Guy - If I seem that narrow minded to you, that I would 'denigrate that which does not fit into my philosophy', then one of two things has happened. Either I have not done a good job of representing my belief systems, or I'm not the one who's narrow minded. I've had a couple minor disagreements with you in the past, and so far I haven't gotten the impression that you're open to suggestion. You strike me as the kind of person that is in your 40s or 50s, and very much 'set in your ways' in how you think and act... I always thought of knowledge as something that's more fluid than that.

iamheather

on Dec 14, 2004

imajinit

The discussion was, 'is there more than one path to the same God?' Your answer was the standard Christian answer of 'no'... In my experience, that seems to be what turns people off about organized religion... from the moment you walk in the door of a new church, or talk to someone who's been a Christian for a long time, they immediately tell you all about how you have to accept Jesus into your heart so you can be saved. That is important, and it may be the most important thing, but I don't necessarily think it has to be the first thing covered. I believe that's something that people have to come to on their own (see Brad's "faith in God" thread)... it's not something that should be forced down people's throats right from the get-go. What if Christians led by example? What if they were out in the community making a difference, thus causing people to want to find out what 'the secret' is?

This sums up beautifully the intent and motive behind this thread. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.

So don't worry about me trying to make sure that my patients stay mentally ill so I can get rich. I'm just sure that your comments were warranted, and that I strike you as the kind of man that would do something like that. Thank you.

I owe you an apology, imajinit. My comment was not warranted.

Gideon MacLeish

on Dec 14, 2004

NO!

There is but one God...the all knowing, all seing Kuppajhoe! You must all bow before him or be smote (smited? smit?) in his all consuming fiery wrath! That, or buy a weekly double redeye at Starbucks for penance!

Dr Guy

on Dec 14, 2004

Learning is a life long vocation. I know a lot more now than I did when I graduated from College. I think our disagreement is when you take statements out of context and then argue against them, often just re-iterating what was said. That comes across as arrogant and that only your opinion is valid, due to your education. If that is not the case, then I offer my apology. I was only commenting on what you wrote, not on what you think, since the latter only you know.

I may be old, but that does not mean I am close minded. It does mean experience has taught me a lot, and that is more valuable then book learning in many cases

iamheather

on Dec 14, 2004

I worship the Kuppajhoe all day. In fact, I am singing his praises now between gulps.

iamheather

on Dec 14, 2004

It does mean experience has taught me a lot, and that is more valuable then book learning in many cases

Wisdom is much more valuable than any education.

What if Christians led by example? What if they were out in the community making a difference, thus causing people to want to find out what 'the secret' is?

"A good example is the best sermon." ~Ben Franklin

Echo_December

on Dec 15, 2004

When Christianity first appeared on the scene, it existed in a polytheistic culture. The 'Way' had to compete against all sorts of occult religions, Greek philosophies, and your bread and butter polytheists. I remember a temple of Aphrodite(?) getting upset at Paul for cutting into their profits. Apparently, religion was big business back then and even as it is now. However, all through European history and the early parts of American history, the Christian Church has created and maintained a theological monopoly. There was only one God and one Church. But now the theological landscape has changed back towards polytheism and Christianity finds itself facing a swarm of Eastern religions, occult practices, and various philosophies that are vying for the souls of Americans. It's Rome all over again. But is this necessarily a bad thing? I think the arrogance of Christianity that imajinit is referring to, is a relic from the days of the Church's former dominance. It is the arrogance of the righteous, the elite, and most importantly, the powerful. It is the power to impose Spanish Inquisitions. The power to order and encourage the Crusades. The power to declare someone a heretic, excommunicated forever, a soul damned to hell. It is the power to take religion and humbly "shove it down people's throats" as you so eloquently put it. But it is not their intentions I disagree with. Most Christians I've met are actually nice, decent people. Their hearts are in the right place, but they do not see that the times have changed and they must change as well if they wish to communicate with the world around them. Perhaps they don't want to. Perhaps that is why I am seeing so many Christian pop bands, and Christian private schools, and Christian movies popping up. Christians in America are forming their own subculture, one that is sheltering itself from the decadent, immoral influences of MTV and the dreaded F-word. Yet if I am polytheistic in my outlook and your religion dictactes that you at least make a passing gesture of trying to show me "the joys of knowing Jesus", how will you convince me to convert? If we were living in medieval Europe, we could both begin with the assumption that there was a god, but these days we cannot even begin with that.
I am Japanese, Okinawan actually, and my people worshipped the spirits of our ancestors. I respect my people's history, but I do not want to worship a god of the dead. I wish to serve a living god, one who would fight alongside me and deliver me from my enemies. I must say, the person of Jesus intrigues me. I have served many fools in my time, but he is a captain I could respect, the kind who would bend over backwards for his men. Those leaders are rare in my experience, and if you're ever fortunate enough to find a boss like that, you stick with him even if he gets the crazy notion to go and save the world.
But Evangelical Christians have no notion of tribes or a people, these are some of the most splintered and divided people I've ever met. Baptists hate the Church of Christ. Church of Christ want nothing to do with the Assemblies of God. And of course, everybody hates the Catholics. Perhaps hate is too strong a word. They've learned to 'tolerate' each other. Yet this is supposed to be the body of Christ! Jesus must be in a lot of pain because his right leg just tore itself off from the rest of the body. Yep, there goes another church split over some doctrinal issue like clapping hands in church. Hmm. Poor guy. They wish to persuade me with arguments and creeds, mere words, which betray their salesmanship and marketing skills. These are American Churches after all, and Americans are reknown for their dexterity with words. You'd think salvation would be an easier sell.
What are they offering me? What is this salvation they speak of? Sadly, when I look at most Christians I see broken people. Their marriages are in trouble, some struggle with depression, eating disorders, and alcohol; they are arrogant, afraid, and narrowminded just like me. Yet if what Jesus taught was true, then even the most horrifying, humiliating, and hurtful experience of our lives can be turned into salvation for another person. I know I've got a few of sekletons locked away in my closet somewhere. But even monsters can be redeemed. If grace is true.
I seek a tribe of wounded healers who would have the courage to bring their sin and shame forward so that it could be used to heal and encourage others, instead I find a tribe on an ideological warpath, seeking to dominate the theological landscape and reclaim their monotheistic throne. Christianity is everywhere these days, and by god they are right! Pounding their message of one faith in one god, and we heathens must be converted. Every time I engage in a theological conversation with fundamental Christians, I get the sinking feeling that I am being hunted and cornered until I am just another notch in a headhunter's belt. They do not want to hear about my pain, or listen to my story, nor can they teach me the craft of forming my sorrows into a song that will mend the broken hearts of others. They cannot show me how to carry my cross, nor the Alchemist's secret of turning a hardened heart of lead into a heart of gold. They are barely getting by themselves.
Christians need to wake up. The good old days were never that good. They will never go back to being the reigning religious superpower like when they had the patronage of Rome, or the full backing of the Medieval fuedal system, or tacit support of the American colonial system. They can finally return to the Early Church model they so desperately want. Because the Church of the New Testament was a religion among religions. Rome was a polytheistic enviroment then, just as it is in America now. Christians are once again a tribe among tribes. But they hold an ace card in that their god Jesus is actually a very cool deity, and the tribe he was raising would've been the thirteenth tribe of Israel, who's name meant, "He who struggles with God". Imagine a tribe of seekers, wounded strugglers trying to survive in a spiritual warzone being lead by the only man to face death and live to tell the tale. Why everyone with broken hearts and psychological wounds would flock to such a tribe! It would've been a tribe of medics, not Crusaders. I could at least respect such a religion. And what if it were true? What if such a god did exist? One who spilled the same blood in the same mud with the rest of us grunts? Such a god would be worthy of my respect and praise. But I cannot say he is the god of Christians. Sadly, I see more "Moral Majority" and right-wing conservatism in Christians than Jesus. To any Christians out there reading this, do not take this as an attack, but instead take it as a challenge. In a polytheistic world filled every kind of god imaginable, I am rooting for your god, the wounded healer. Call me sentimental, but I'd like that such a god exists. Such a god would be worthy of my respect.

iamheather

on Dec 15, 2004

Sadly, when I look at most Christians I see broken people. Their marriages are in trouble, some struggle with depression, eating disorders, and alcohol; they are arrogant, afraid, and narrowminded just like me.

What you see are mortal human beings. Being a Christian does not mean you will not commit a sin or feel pain or struggle. It does not mean you will not cry, hurt, or become sick. We are fallable. That is what makes Jesus so amazing to Christians. He was both God and man in the flesh. He was tempted and prevailed. He shed his perfect blood to wash away the sins we have committed and will commit. He comforts, forgives, and heals.

They do not want to hear about my pain, or listen to my story, nor can they teach me the craft of forming my sorrows into a song that will mend the broken hearts of others. They cannot show me how to carry my cross, nor the Alchemist's secret of turning a hardened heart of lead into a heart of gold. They are barely getting by themselves.

I am so sorry that you have not met Christians who wanted to reach out, listen, and comfort you.

Sadly, I see more "Moral Majority" and right-wing conservatism in Christians than Jesus.

Jesus is not mutually exclusive from "moral majority" or conservatism. Moral majority and conservatism are political offspring of Christianity and thus Jesus. The political aspects exist more for protection of the belief in Jesus.

Shulamite

on Dec 15, 2004

Imajinit -- dude, I respect your response; it is very gentlemanly. (You're right -- we hear a whole lot about historical and some about theological, citical only by few, and even rarer, I believe do we get the exegetical. I get a lot of that from studying with Hank Hanegraaf. You probably have heard of him.)

I once had a Japanese friend ask me, "why do missionaries always have to tell you about what they believe?" in a very exasperated tone. I told him it was because it is a command by Jesus to do this. He said, "Oh, so it's HIS fault!" Quite candid -- not ordinary for a Japanese student -- but it really helped me to understand many people's viewpoint. (Not trolling... I swear I'll swing it back around!)

It's a two-parter. Not ONLY am I comanded to tell people the gospel message (the part you've noticed, as many have!) but I'm commanded to live as he has instructed. "If you love me, obey me." That's going back to 1 Cor. 13, a deeper explanation for what it means to love your neighbor as yourself (indeed, as Christ loved you and gave himself for you) and God above all else. That's reality daily and I have to live it. What good is one without the other????? it's useless, thin, void, shallow... the adjectives go on.

Bottom line: I believe Christ when he said "I am the way," and when he said, "No one gets to the Father except through me." For me to pick and chose what I beleive on basis of convenience is hypocrisy and vulgar; I think you can respect that. In turn, I take very literally that WE are the body of Christ. What happens if His feet don't go, if His arms don't reach, if His body doesn't reach out to others? Yeah, it's diseased right now because Christians are the best at glorifying him on one hand and then NEVER putting themselves in a predicament where they actually have to be caught trusting in Him. They never actually give more than they can bear because they feel Him telling them to and because they trust Him. They pray for His daily intervention and blessings and believe He freely gives it and will tell everyone they meet including you--- but they dont' try it out themselves.

I'm not perfect and I don't live a perfect life. I screw up all the time. But I don't give up. Others are depending on me because I am part of His body. I love others; I don't judge others motives; I trust God; give more than I can quite often; I tell others about Him; and I live in such a way that people ask me "why are you so happy all the time??"

Which religion would people want to join? The happy buddhist who still doesn't know what to do with the shame and guilt one can still feel after years of wrong doing or the happy Christian who can give an answer for why that shame and guilt is no longer applicable? And if I were to take your question and toy with it: Which one would they want: a religion that waffles on what the truth really is and can't really offer any hope or a religion that can bear witness to the truth in their lives, played out on a daily, supernatural basis? The supernatural intervention of God is the key and I agree with you, as long as Christians aren't willing to let God intervene in their lives supernaturally, in instances when there is just NO WAY it could be explained by any human action, people are going to say there is nothing special to Christianity.

Oh, and I'm not your stepmom. I've only got one child and she's five! I didn't get the impression you were trying to do evil things with psychology as your toy -- I just thought you were a little snappy and quick to judge. It's cool. We all do it. Part of the machine.... For another blog on another day -- you'll have to give your thoughts on cognitive science. I'm fascinated by the subject -- linguistics (Noah Choam, Steven Pinker, et al._ and metacognition. Everytime I think about metacognition, I wonder if I've suddenly stepped into a third dimesion on the topic, maybe a metacognition to the 3rd power! (Thinking about me thinking about how I think.)

Echo_December

on Dec 18, 2004

iamheather - I am so sorry that you have not met Christians who wanted to reach out, listen, and comfort you.

This is not true. I have met you and can sense you have a kind heart. I have met others in the Church like you. But this war is between me and God. Deep down, I've always known Jesus was my god. I cannot say He is everyone's God, but I swore an oath to him. My word bound my soul to him. But I was the one who rebelled and broke ranks. I am like Judas in that I followed Jesus for three years yet betrayed him at the end with a kiss. He was not the messiah I imagined him to be. I've been trained in all your ways and have read the same books you have. I know how to speak "Christianese". But in my hour of need, he did not come. That disappointment lead to a deep bitterness fiercer than any sinner's unbelief. Unbelievers don't care if God exists or not, I care to the point of hatred. I chose to make war against god out of vengance. I live to kill him over and over again and can only assume that he lives to do the same. We are enemies now. I know I can't win, but I would rather die fighting than serve a liar. If prophecies are to come true, somebody has to be Judas right? Perhaps it is my role to hate God with all my heart, all my strength, and all my soul.
Ah such angst! Such pain! Reminds me of high school all over again. Who am I to complain? Others have got it a lot worse than me. It's not that I don't believe in Jesus. It's just that I don't trust him. I just go about my life, staying out of trouble, working hard so that when he decides to get angry and decimate my life yet again, I'll be ready for him. He's done it before. He'll do it again. But that stupid oath haunts me, binds me to him and his religion even when I don't want to be. I volunteer at a local church and help with their soundboard and I'm not even sure why. They're a small Methodist church and need all the help they can get, and they're all decent people. It's good to feel needed. And the songs they sing sound nice. It's paradoxical that I hate God so much, yet help his followers. Don't ask me, my brain is fried and I'm not making any sense anymore. My oath lives through me even when my faith has died.

iamheather

on Dec 18, 2004

But in my hour of need, he did not come

How do you know? Maybe He came, but not like you expected or wanted.

Did you allow Him to come? Were you truly open to Him?

I think you are more at war with your own self than with God. He is still there, waiting for you, His child. Faith is a gift, but you must be open to receive the gift.

Echo_December

on Dec 20, 2004

iamheather - I think you are more at war with your own self than with God. He is still there, waiting for you, His child. Faith is a gift, but you must be open to receive the gift.

Perhaps you are right. Perhaps God is all around us, weeping with us, laughing alongside us. The ghost of Jesus haunts this world even when we have forgotten him. I once heard an old story about a fourth magi. He saw the star, reasoned its meaning and set off to find the newborn king but arrived too late. Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt and Herod ordered the slaughter of all newborn males under the age of two. In the midst of this slaughter of innocence that his tale begins. It is the story of my life, ever chasing rumors of god's birth, yet only finding pain and death when I finally 'arrive'. I'm always one step behind.
Did I allow Him to come? Was I truly open to Him? No. I was not. From the very first moment I realized what Jesus had done, I felt this deep resentment. Who was this man to come and die like this? Who asked him to do this to me? It's horrifying to realize that someone loves you and you don't know how to love them in return. It's like recieving a gift and having no one to give it to. Don't take away my rage. The existence of love would render me a sad, little man who became angry because he was too afraid to open up and love. It's easier to disbelieve. It's easier to be cold and angry.
I think you are right when you say that I am war with my own self. The battle is being fought over my heart. On the one hand I can sense this terrifying hatred that would have me burn this entire world out of sheer spite. It whispers for vengance for the hurt of the past. Yet on the other hand, is the image of a single man hanging there watching me. Curse his eyes! It's one thing to have faith in God. It's another thing entirely when God has faith in you. He looks at me and believes I can be better than this. He believes I can be stronger and wiser. He believes I am capable of great sacrifice and even great love. He sees the wings of an angel where I see none. And why? Because we were brothers? Both sons of the same father? Because the same blood flows through both of our veins? Even as I kill him, as Cain killed Abel, he forgives me with his dying breath. What does he see in me? His brother? Is this love? Can he see through the curse, to the child I used to be? Can he see through this monstrous mask I've created to hide myself from others, to the child I still am? Can he see through the werewolf within, to the child I will always be? If he could, the spell would be broken and I would become a normal boy once again.
I'm sorry that they did away with confession, because this sounds awfully like one. Even though you didn't ask to, thanks for taking mine. You say that faith is a gift and we must be open to recieve it. But perhaps we are the gift that must be opened in order to recieve it. These words have been boiling and festering within me for seven years. I don't know why I opened up to you (and everyone with access to this website), but once I was opened, only then was I able to receive back my own words. Reading it over a second time now, it all becomes clear and there is meaning where before there was only confusion and anger. So thanks for listening and allowing me this opportunity to voice my blog/confession.

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