I've forgotten how to use that quote deal on this forum so let me make my own use until you remind me again...grrr. Heather, you quoted Karen Armstrong, " thus Jews, Christians and Muslims were all called 'atheists' by their pagan contemporaries..." True, but in those days "Atheist" didn't mean what it means today. "ATheist" (note the two CAPS "A" and "T" . It actually meant something like "A-Typical" , meaning abnormal or someone who had departed from the normal understanding or belief in God, rather than someone who did not believe in God at all. As Karen goes on to point out, all peoples believed in God in one fashion or another. Until the days of John Locke and into the preceeding days of so-called reason and enlightment, the belief in God was something everyone held. Those who had departed from the commonly held understandings of pagan gods or other deities were known as "A-Theist" because they were A-Typical in their belief in God rather than not believing in God(s) at all as is common in today's venacular.

Yes, I only quoted one paragraph from Armstrong's book. I think Armstrong alludes to the point you are making Sabbatismus here:

Atheism has often been a transitional state: thus Jews, Christians and Muslims were all called 'atheists' by their pagan contemporaries because they had adopted a revolutionary notion of divinity and transcendence

Thank you for your explanation. It helped define what she was referring to as atheism being a transitional state, historically.

Is this just too "heady," cerebral, or plain boring?

Hhhhmmm...As one who does not believe in god....I'm thinking about this...

When people take different paths, they expect different results. There are as many gods as there are religions.

There are as many gods as there are religions

Are there many gods, stevendadalus, or just differing human definitions of "God?" Maybe those gods are simply various aspects of "God."

Hhhhmmm...As one who does not believe in god....I'm thinking about this...

Leaping, let me in on your thinking....I am very interested.

Hmm, big questions.

I suppose a particular concept of God would be dependent upon the time in which it was conceptualized. People have only their own experiences to draw on, and their experiences are dependent upon the times in which they live. While to be human might essentially be the same as it was thousands of years ago, we are just as human as they were back then, the experience is very different. (I imagine.) It seems like this would necessarily effect the was people conceptualize God within a particular period.

That said, I'm no expert on any religion. Are there different paths to the same God? I do think so. I think that all roads, in the end, lead to the same place, and it's really as simple as that for me. I think it's just as good to be a Christian as a Jew as a Muslim as a Buddhist, (etc). But with thinking like this, half of 'em wouldn't have me. Which only serves to remind me that even within a certain time period, individuals' concepts of God will vary greatly.

Hamster

I think that all roads, in the end, lead to the same place, and it's really as simple as that for me. I think it's just as good to be a Christian as a Jew as a Muslim as a Buddhist, (etc). But with thinking like this, half of 'em wouldn't have me. Which only serves to remind me that even within a certain time period, individuals' concepts of God will vary greatly.

I believe in some ways most religious roads do lead to the same place, but I think one's knowledge at the time is a factor in accountability. I am not set in stone on that one, but that is my current thinking.

It seems that you then share Karen Armstrong's same views. Thank you so much for the reply. I was worried no one wanted to have this discussion with me.

Have an insightful.

Is one big paragraph, not easy reading. And I try not to debate politics or religion too much, it's all too easy to get too heated, thats why I'm not jumping in here. But having said that...
If god is in any sense real, and not merely a fabrication to comfort people, then there would either have to be a steady line of gods over the years, or the god we worship today is the same one our ancestors worshiped. If there has been a steady stream of gods (not merely mortals revered as gods) then christianity, judaism, and (as i understand it) islam is nonsense at best. So either there never was a god (and most likely never will be) or there has always been the same god that is around today (even if we worship he/she/it under different guises). And for whatever frame of reference it might add, I consider myself a christian.
Tried to post this last night but my internet connection decided to stop working

When people take different paths, they expect different results. There are as many gods as there are religions.

I have to disagree with you.  IN the first place, the god of Judism, Christianity and Islam is the same.  But that is not surprising since they all spring from Judism.

But even in the religions that profess belief in multiple gods, Hinduism for example, there is a common thread.  Hinduism, which has many Gods, really has 3 major gods (ah!  The concept of the trinity again!) and one of them is God of all gods!  Greek and Roman mythology had the same set up.  So are they really that different from the Judeo-Christian god?

I think not.  For you can view the lesser gods in most religions as angels in the Judeo-christian religion.  When you break down the major religions, you begin to see a lot of commonality between them.  Is that because of the limited nature of man and his imagination?  I doubt many would subscribe to that theory.  SO there appears to be something more behind the commonality.

For some, that is the belief that there really is a god.  For others, it is just the natural progression of human logic (everything coming to a central point - or in the case of religion,to 1 over arching surpreme being).

"The human idea of God has a history, since it has always meant something slightly different to each group of people who have used it at various points of time. The idea of God formed in one generation by one set of human beings could be meaningless in another. Indeed, the statement 'I believe in God' has no objective meaning, as such, but like any other statement only means something in context, when proclaimed by a particular community.

What I find fascinating about this point (and I do agree with it) is what happened to make the major religions of today so long lasting?  We call the religions of the Greeks and Romans 'Mythology', yet they are really ancient religions that did not survive their civilizations.  Yet Hinduism, Buddism, the trio of Judeo religions (for a convenient grouping) have all survived thousands of years when the normal life span of a religion is but a couple hundred.

And I ask why?  I know that each suceeding generation molds their religion to fit the times.  Indeed, if you were to point out the one major purpose of the Catholic Church, it would be to stop that from happening.  And even they are not totally sucessful (Note Vatican II in the early 60s).  Man always tries to mold the religion to fit their current world problems.  The debate about gays was not an issue 200 years ago, nor was the issue of Abortion.  Today they occupy an inordinant amount of time in the politics of most religions. 

So while the major religions have not changed in the last 1500 years, all of them have changed to fit the times.  (Confusing, sorry.  I mean the major religions today are the same ones from 1500 years ago.) Yet with the changing, they still, at the core, are the same.

That is the $64 question.  Why do these religions survive and thrive, yet others wither and die? Perhaps because the ones that contain some of the absolute truth will transcend their creators?

I dont know.  But is is an interesting question.

"What I find fascinating about this point (and I do agree with it) is what happened to make the major religions of today so long lasting? We call the religions of the Greeks and Romans 'Mythology', yet they are really ancient religions that did not survive their civilizations. Yet Hinduism, Buddism, the trio of Judeo religions (for a convenient grouping) have all survived thousands of years when the normal life span of a religion is but a couple hundred."

That's a good question. Perhaps, we desire gods to rule over us. Even if we destroyed the concept of god, we would created idols in his image. Perhaps we're doomed to repeat these silly rituals and irrational superstitions because deep within us is a fatal flaw to worship the unknown. Even if we are accidents, the byproducts of a long series of mutations, we would create a god, sacrifice our firstborn to him, and then discard him like yesterday's news. There is a carelessness to our approach to religion that is disturbing. History is littered with dead gods. Theologically speaking, we are a bloody thirsty people.

Progress, for all its progressivism, cannot tolerate ignorance and those who cling to outdated notions are scorned by those brave enough to recognize their own intellectual bravery. However, religious knowledge by its very nature is a remembrance. Remember the teachings, promises, threats, and acts of your gods. Gods die when people forget them. But worse yet, is a religion that forgets itself. Such gods are insane and their religions undead. When spirituality is replaced by rituals, wisdom replaced by creed, compassion replaced by judgement, that religion has degenerated into a ghoulish vampirism on the living. Religions like Christianity exist because we allow them to exist. But remember, it's just a game. If all roads do lead to the same god, then why worry? You'll get there eventually. It's mere semantics. Right?

Danny

Is one big paragraph, not easy reading

I was wondering about that. I went ahead and separated the paragraph and just notated it.

If god is in any sense real, and not merely a fabrication to comfort people, then there would either have to be a steady line of gods over the years, or the god we worship today is the same one our ancestors worshiped. If there has been a steady stream of gods (not merely mortals revered as gods) then christianity, judaism, and (as i understand it) islam is nonsense at best. So either there never was a god (and most likely never will be) or there has always been the same god that is around today (even if we worship he/she/it under different guises). And for whatever frame of reference it might add, I consider myself a christian

I don't necessarily agree with the "steady line of gods" per se, but more of a steady line of differing definitions and understandings of God.

Either way, I appreciate your comments especially as you try to avoid these types of subjects.

Dr. Guy

But even in the religions that profess belief in multiple gods, Hinduism for example, there is a common thread. Hinduism, which has many Gods, really has 3 major gods (ah! The concept of the trinity again!) and one of them is God of all gods! Greek and Roman mythology had the same set up. So are they really that different from the Judeo-Christian god?

Excellent point, Dr. Guy.

For you can view the lesser gods in most religions as angels in the Judeo-christian religion. When you break down the major religions, you begin to see a lot of commonality between them.

I tend to view the "lesser gods" as simply different aspects of God. He is vast and limitless.

We call the religions of the Greeks and Romans 'Mythology', yet they are really ancient religions that did not survive their civilizations. Yet Hinduism, Buddism, the trio of Judeo religions (for a convenient grouping) have all survived thousands of years when the normal life span of a religion is but a couple hundred.

Yes, it is fascinating. As I read more of the book, I hope Armstrong will elaborate more on the evolution of religion and God.

Why do these religions survive and thrive, yet others wither and die? Perhaps because the ones that contain some of the absolute truth will transcend their creators?

Fascinating question.

Echo

Perhaps, we desire gods to rule over us.

In the book, Armstrong proposes that we are homo religious as much as homo sapiens.

Perhaps, we desire gods to rule over us.

What's that classic line? "If there was no God we would have to create one?"