Are There Different Paths to the Same God?

Published on December 8, 2004 By iamheather In Philosophy

While reading Christmas-Why do we celebrate it like we do on KarmaGirl's blog, I noticed that the comment section turned into a partial discussion on pathways to God. Some bloggers believed only through "Jesus" could someone reach salvation or God. Others thought multiple pathways lead to the same end result of God .

I am currently reading a book titled, The History of God by Karen Armstrong. Her writing and study is challenging, but highly pertinent and fascinating. This discussion reminded me of an insightful paragraph in Armstrong's book. As a precursor to a hopefully interesting and lively discussion, I will post the excerpt here.

"The human idea of God has a history, since it has always meant something slightly different to each group of people who have used it at various points of time. The idea of God formed in one generation by one set of human beings could be meaningless in another. Indeed, the statement 'I believe in God' has no objective meaning, as such, but like any other statement only means something in context, when proclaimed by a particular community. Consequently there is no one unchanging idea contained in the word 'God'; instead, the word contains a whole spectrum of meanings, some of which are contradictory or even mutually exclusive. Had the notion of God not had this flexibility, it would not have survived to become one of the great human ideas.

When one conception of God has ceased to have meaning or relevance, it has been quietly discarded and replaced by a new theology. A fundamentalist would deny this, since fundamentalism is antihistorical: it believes that Abraham, Moses and the later prophets all experienced their God in exactly the same way as people do today. Yet if we look at our three religions [Judaism, Christianity, and Islam], it becomes clear that there is no objective view of 'God': each generation has to create the image of God that works for it.

The same is true of atheism. The statement 'I do not believe in God' has meant something slightly different at each period of history. The people who have been dubbed 'atheists' over the years have always denied a particular conception of the divine. Is the 'God' who is rejected by atheists today, the God of the patriarchs, the God of the prophets, the God of the philosophers, the God of the mystics or the God of the eighteenth-centurey deists? All these deities have been venerated as the God of the Bible and the Koran by Jews, Christians and Muslims at various points of their history. We shall see that they are very different from one another.

Atheism has often been a transitional state: thus Jews, Christians and Muslims were all called 'atheists' by their pagan contemporaries because they had adopted a revolutionary notion of divinity and transcendence. Is modern atheism a similar denial of a 'God' which is no longer adequate to the problems of our time?"

*note the paragraph breaks are my own, added for ease of reading on this blog. In the book, this is one paragraph.

Comments (Page 3)

iamheather

on Dec 10, 2004

Dr. Guy

they really are not surviving the progression of human knowledge.

That is exactly the point of Karen's book.

But in each of the eastern religions, there is the core concept of God, even tho most of them profess more a way of living to achieve perfection, than a ticket to heaven (which could be the same thing if you look at it that way).

Yes, there is a core definition of God in all religions. If a relgion is to survive, that definition is not stagnent but transforming through knowledge.

the religion is not surviving, it is becoming something else

Which makes me wonder. At what point does a religion cease to be one religion and become another?

LW

For Turk and Brahmin, monk and JewHas reached Him through the gods they knew

Yes, LW. I have seen you post this poem other places and always appreciate it.

EmperorofIceCream

Atheist. Composed of 'A' And 'Theist' and meaning without a personal god in just the same way that 'amoral' means being without morality.You don't understand a word of what you've written, do you?

I think you were a little harsh. Yes, I know that is your style, but in all fairness, it seems you missed the first part of Sabbatismus' quote.

Sabbatismus

True, but in those days

As with many words, the definition used to today is not the same of old, for example the word "gay."

It helped define what she was referring to as atheism being a transitional state, historically

Sabbatismus has read the book and he was clarifying for those that have not, what the author's premise was in the paragraph I quoted. He was putting the paragraph in context of the book.

Dr Guy

on Dec 10, 2004

EmperorofIceCream
Atheist. Composed of 'A' And 'Theist' and meaning without a personal god in just the same way that 'amoral' means being without morality.

That is a very good explanation. Most think amoral is immoral. Thank you for the clarification.

iamheather

on Dec 10, 2004

That is a very good explanation. Most think amoral is immoral. Thank you for the clarification

Yes, it is a good explanation of today's definition of atheist, but not what the author was referring to.

Shulamite

on Dec 11, 2004

These are very very very concise versions of what I know and contribute. I'll follow any that are of any use:

If there are many rodes to heaven, why did Christ have to die? Seems a lot if you could make it some other way or if God wasn't all that particular. (I've discussed before the evidence for Christ's diety. Hebrews best defends it while CS Lewis best summarizes, "He's either lunatic, liar, or God.")

As for the "age" of all those religions and naming some as older than others: most religions acknowledge a creationist viewpoint except Darwinism (which also is a religion). We go back to the first people. They had a religion. It was personal with God. Luke (NT) traces Christ's ancestory back to Adam by name, generation by generation, and ends with God Himself. Pretty durn impressive for any religion. (The Jews were selected out of all the races by God to receive God's special revelations for mankind. Not because of anything they did to deserve it, but because of His grace; formerly, they were infanct sacrificers to Molech.) The Jews carefully guarded and recorded the revelation he gave. (Jews wore boxes on their heads as a reminder to memorize and keep the Word on the forefront of their minds to teach it to the next generation. Every Jewish child knew the Shema -- Deuteronomy 6. Jewish values, ideals, beliefs, et cetera haven't changed all that much.

Regarding Christianity: Paul speaks of the early church as "Israel." He says people are not Jewish because of their race. They are Jewish because of their beliefs. He considered believers to be Israel and all the language in the NT that applies to the church (Holy Nation, chosen of God) is the language God used for Israel. Christianity is Judaism that recognizes the Messiah. Here's the point: the church rapidly grew from Gentiles. The only way the entire world could ever be reached is if Israel, God's holy people, kept His revelation holy and observed his law so that we could anticipate and recognize the Messiah. It went to the select, just as in a microcosmic way the Levites were entrusted to certain aspects of maintaining Judaism. Select, so that all may maintain. The world maintained God's wisdom and knowledge through the Jewish people despite their own back ground.

Why do so many "Gentile" gods seem so different on the surface and yet so SIMILAR to YHWH once one goes deeper? (Insightful, Dr. Guy.) Because as the Psalms point out, the entire earth speaks of a Creator and of His qualities. The Heavens declare His glory. The Earth bears witness to Him and His existance. Paul says in Romans that people are without excuse for realizing there is a Creator because He left His creation to speak into their hearts of His existance and of His qualities. The Bible answers all these questions that have been brought up.

Finally, as Mark Twain points out (who remained angry at God throughout his lifetime), a person cannot create a new idea on his or her own. They can simply recycle or reassemble old knowledge they've been given. A person not taught will not have ideas about that which they've not been taught anything at all. The key is THEY HAVE TO BE INSTRUCTED BY SOMEONE ELSE. We could not have invented the idea of a god. He taught us Himself. His creation declares it. And the whole world, without the specialized revelation the Jews were given, embraced the fact they were subject to a higher Power because of this.

iamheather

on Dec 11, 2004

Why do so many "Gentile" gods seem so different on the surface and yet so SIMILAR to YHWH once one goes deeper? (Insightful, Dr. Guy.) Because as the Psalms point out, the entire earth speaks of a Creator and of His qualities. The Heavens declare His glory. The Earth bears witness to Him and His existance

Very good point, Shulamite. They all seem so similar the God because they originate from the same being.

We could not have invented the idea of a god. He taught us Himself. His creation declares it.

Again...because it an inherent part of our make up by our Creator.

Dr Guy

on Dec 11, 2004

We could not have invented the idea of a god. He taught us Himself. His creation declares it.

Again...because it an inherent part of our make up by our Creator.

I wont go that far. I think man has always had a need to know, and explain. And when explanantions are not forthcoming, they make up legends. I do Believe in God because there is n oway to explain the order from the chaos of the Big bang. But I do not necessarily think God taught us himself (or herself).

man is a very wise animal at times. And can see great things when not bound by his own feelings of inadequacy.

imajinit

on Dec 11, 2004

Heather - first let me say thanks for introducing us to an intriguing discussion. You're the heat.

Shulamite - Thanks for reminding me of why I find it so hard to accept 'organized religion'... you've regurgitated your teaching quite well, and missed the boat all at the same time.

Now that I have that out of the way, Lord help me as I get involved in another discussion about religion. I love 'em and yet I hate 'em. So without further adieu, and not knowing who the fuck I think I am:

Perhaps we're doomed to repeat these silly rituals and irrational superstitions because deep within us is a fatal flaw to worship the unknown.

Echo - are you sure that it's a 'fatal flaw' within us? What if its our saving grace?

I agree wholeheartedly with Echo that we have a deep need within us to worship the unknown. I wouldn't necessarily word it the way he did, I'd be more likely to say that we have a deep need within us to understand and to know our creator in whatever capacity possible. At some point in our lives, we all find ourselves asking the question "why am I here?" Naturally we're going to seek out our creator when attempting to answer that question.

While I'm on the subject of our Creator, I'm going to throw this out there. I believe that God is using a convenient little process that we know as 'evolution' to 'create' us. See, God is on His own timetable, and He can take as long as He wants to create the world... He can also destroy it anytime He chooses, which is something we'd all do well to keep in mind.

In a perfect world, we would live in a Utopian Society where we wouldn't have to have a separation of Church and State. Our laws would be based on a doctrine that would dictate right and wrong, and we would all respect our neighbors and consistently do 'the right thing'. But humans are flawed, and therefore society and the law are flawed as well (right O.J.?)... We're all just animals, so we have an inborn desire to live by the laws of nature, ie. "survival of the fittest"... but we're also 'higher functioning' than any other animal, and so we choose to band together in groups and live in societies. Those societies have to be governed in some form & fashion in order to keep the strong from beating up on the weak. (or at least to keep it from being obvious) ... So choose your form of government... Capitalism/Democracy? Socialism? Monarchy? Communism? They all have their own pros and cons, but the zeitgeist of today seems to have determined that 'democracy' is the way to go. (that's a discussion for another thread)...

So what does all of that have to do with the discussion at hand? I have no idea... I just wanted to throw it out there. But let me try to tie it back in anyway.

Take away all of the history, the hate, the wars, and the 'traditions' that we hold onto so dearly, and what do you have left? We're just animals. We're just people. Whether we're Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Christian, Atheist, or living in a jungle in Africa, we're just people and we just want to be happy. It's all the details that we get worked up about. A young Palestinian boy is right now being taught to hate all Jewish people. A Shi'ite boy in Iraq is being taught to hate 'the westerners' that have 'invaded' his homeland... that's a lesson that he's going to take straight to his heart, and remember for a very long time... in other words, a lot of religion, as well as hate, love, kindness, etc. is taught to us by the words and actions of our parents, teachers, and other adults. And that is where we're failing as a global society. We're teaching religious intolerance and hatred for people who are 'different' from us, when we should be teaching our kids to value and preserve life. We're going off to fight wars aimed at satisfying our oil needs when we should be going to see our grandparents at their retirement home. For many of us, it's only when we reach our own individual 'age of reasoning' that we begin to question the hows and whys of what we've been taught. For some, that 'questioning' never happens.

I don't know much. I do know that it's pretty pathetic that it's 1 in the afternoon on a Saturday and I'm still laying in bed. It's a shame that I'm spending this long discussing religion, when I should be out volunteering to make a difference in my community. I say that because at the end of the day, isn't that what religion is all about? Whether following the teachings of Jesus, or the teachings of Buddha, aren't we supposed to help the people who can't help themselves? Aren't we supposed to know in our hearts what's right and wrong, and act accordingly?

Are there different paths to the same God? I don't know. There's not much that I do know. But I have some ideas.

Dr Guy

on Dec 11, 2004

A young Palestinian boy is right now being taught to hate all Jewish people. A Shi'ite boy in Iraq is being taught to hate 'the westerners' that have 'invaded' his homeland... that's a lesson that he's going to take straight to his heart, and remember for a very long time... in other words, a lot of religion, as well as hate, love, kindness, etc. is taught to us by the words and actions of our parents, teachers, and other adults

Unfortunately, you are right. And wrong. It is not a religion, it is the same as the christians that said that blacks were inferior (and many still believe today) and that persecution of non-christians (even catholics) is ok.

That is not religion. It is hate posing as such, and (ok, I am christian), Jesus did warn us against Satan posing as one of us to corrupt us. Guess Satan likes Muslims even more than Christians today as most of the bigots are gone from Christianity, just not Islam. But if we drop our guard, he will be back in whatever religion feeds his evil.

imajinit

on Dec 11, 2004

Unfortunately, you are right. And wrong. It is not a religion

I didn't say it was religion Dr. Guy... I said 'a lot of religion, as well as hate, love, kindness, etc. are taught to us...' No organized religion is without imperfection or hypocrisy.

Satan is in all of us. We have only to look at the Stanford Prison Experiment, the Millgram 'compliance' experiment, or the Holocaust to see that.

iamheather

on Dec 11, 2004

Dr. Guy

I think man has always had a need to know, and explain

Yes, I agree completely, however I would go one further and ask where that need comes from. Could it be intentionally placed by God so we would seek Him?

imajinit

Heather - first let me say thanks for introducing us to an intriguing discussion. You're the heat

Thank you, but believe me, the pleasure is all mine. This discussion has been awesome and so insightful. I love the exchange of ideas we are having.

Lord help me as I get involved in another discussion about religion. I love 'em and yet I hate 'em

Boy, do I understand. I hope to make this one of those you love by keeping the thread to an open exchange without hatred, condemnation, or judgement.

in other words, a lot of religion, as well as hate, love, kindness, etc. is taught to us by the words and actions of our parents, teachers, and other adults. And that is where we're failing as a global society. We're teaching religious intolerance and hatred for people who are 'different' from us, when we should be teaching our kids to value and preserve life.

I agree, but like Dr. Guy, I do not think the hatred is truly religion. More of a "wolf in sheep's clothing."

We're going off to fight wars aimed at satisfying our oil needs when we should be going to see our grandparents at their retirement home.

Darn, I was with ya until this.....

Ecclesiastes 3

1 For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: 2 a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; 3 a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; 4 a time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; 5 a time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; 6 a time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; 7 a time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; 8 a time to love, and a time to hate; a time for war, and a time for peace.

make a difference in my community. I say that because at the end of the day, isn't that what religion is all about? Whether following the teachings of Jesus, or the teachings of Buddha, aren't we supposed to help the people who can't help themselves? Aren't we supposed to know in our hearts what's right and wrong, and act accordingly?

Yes, it is our obligation to give back, and in doing so, I believe we will see, feel, and experience the face of God.

Dr. Guy

Very insightful and so true! However, I would disagree that most of the bigots are gone from Christianity.

imajinit

Satan is in all of us.

I think I know what you mean, but I have to disagree with this statement. Satan tempts all of us, and we choose to fall. I refuse to think Satan is in me, but I am well aware of his abiility to persuade me through temptation and disguise.

Dr Guy

on Dec 11, 2004

Yes, I agree completely, however I would go one further and ask where that need comes from. Could it be intentionally placed by God so we would seek Him?

Very insightful, and I dont know! But something to contemplate.

kingbee

on Dec 12, 2004

I would disagree that most of the bigots are gone from Christianity.

The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

iamheather

on Dec 12, 2004

for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted

Nice comment. There are bigots still in Christianity, as in all of humanity.

Shulamite

on Dec 13, 2004

Imajinit -- I'm not sure what your idea of "organized religion" is but it was an awfully nice way to dismiss everything I said.

I've been studying (yes I mean studying) the Bible, moral philosophy, theology, and apologetics for years. Yeah, I know how to form the words for what my heart knows to be true -- that's all. My life is different because of my relationship with God and that relationship is one of grace, undeserved. I'm no longer a child of satan (I think that is the point just being discussed above) and I'm able to see things with spiritual eyes that are open instead of eyes that belong to the hard-hearted being I'm prone to be.

I think if you ask any child I teach or have taught, from the most tattooed-up gangsta to the most precious shy & softpoken to the pre-law overachievers -- "What does she say? Does she live it?" They'd tell you YES a thousand times over "Because she cares about me." I walk in each day knowing I might be the only person who tells that kid they're cared for, they're loved, they were missed the day before, they can do it, their achievements matter, and their soul matters. I drive home knowing I might be the only person praying for that kid. This weight sits upon my chest heavily until I give it over to the only One big enough to lift it. And I've seen lives changed; I've seen His intervention where you'd have denied a possibility existed. I take no credit or glory -- this is all the work of the Holy One I worship. And yes, He is the only way to heaven -- as Paul asks, "how will they know if we don't tell them?" I believe in seeing beyond a person's outside (and outward behavior) to their soul in need of redemption.

I respect your right to disagree but plese don't try to discredit what I said by simply calling it a name, reducing it to a straw-man, and walking away just because you dislike the fact I'm secure in what I believe.

Dr Guy

on Dec 13, 2004

I respect your right to disagree but plese don't try to discredit what I said by simply calling it a name, reducing it to a straw-man, and walking away just because you dislike the fact I'm secure in what I believe.

Unfortunately, when all else fails, that is what it comes down to. I wish it were not. But he is (or she is) about to become a psychologist, and must always denigrate that which does not fit into their philosphy.

Welcome Guest! Please take the time to register with us.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:

Richer content, access to many features that are disabled for guests like commenting on the forums.
Access to a great community, with a massive database of many, many areas of interest.
Access to contests & subscription offers like exclusive emails.
It's simple, and FREE!