Pell Grants Response

Published on November 27, 2004 By iamheather In Politics

Since I cannot comment on another user's blog about cutting Pell Grant funding (seems I was pre-emptively blacklisted), I would like to offer an opposing point of view.

While I commend anyone who rises above the difficulties life has dealt them, giving credit to government programs diminishes that person's achievement. I, too, came from a low-income family. College was not an option for me unless I earned it. Instead of applying for a government grant, I strived from my very first day in school to keep my grades up. Eventually, upon graduating from High School, I had full academic scholarships to several universities. In both my case and the example of the person who utilized Pell Grants, it was our tenacity and achievements that enabled us to receive a college education.

Having said this, let me clear up the "cut in funding for Pell Grants." This is a mistatement. Funding was not cut for Pell Grants. Pell Grants will have no less money than last year. The increase in the annual funding was lowered. The funding will still increase, just at a lower rate than some wanted and expected. Please see the below chart:

The President's proposal increases funding for the Pell grant program by $800 million and sets aside $3.7 billion in mandatory budget authority to eliminate the Pell Grant shortfall. However, it will keep the maximum grant award at $4,050 for the third consecutive year.

And for the first time, recipients of Pell Grants will be allowed to receive up to three grants a year. In the past, applicants only qualified for one grant a year.

Fiscal restraint is the mantra repeated by both sides of the aisle, but no one will ever agree on "things we really need" vs. "things we just want." In the new FY05 budget, some people were upset with the cuts in the National Science Foundation.
Federal air traffic controllers produced a scathing ad against Bush for proposing to cut some of their funding. Other education advocates immediately jump on Pell Grants. What about the environment? Global warming is a huge issue for some people.

Beware congressional leaders, in the spirit of fiscal restraint, cut too much and suddenly legistlators are lableled selfish, heartless, self-serving Republicans taking checks from Seniors, lunches from school children, destroying our environment, and denying minorities and low-income Americans educational opportunities.

Comments (Page 2)

Texas Wahine

on Nov 27, 2004

Hmm, lets pull Texas Wahine back into this conversation....she, (an admitted liberal) would fit your definition of a deadbeat then, because she too used loans and grants to go to school, but upon getting her degree, decided to stay home and raise her children. Its not for me to agree or disagree with her decision to do that, but hey, if youre going to start tossing the "deadbeat" label around, id love to hear HER input on this.

Personally, I don't want to be pulled into this and have people judging me today.

Danny Bassette

on Nov 27, 2004

Well tough, I'm judging you Texas Wahine, and I think your a wonderful person

oops, sorry iamheather, that was thoroughly off topic of me, delete my evil ways

drmiler

on Nov 27, 2004

Reply #9 By: cactoblasta - 11/27/2004 8:42:43 AM
If your boss promises a $2.00 per hour raise each year, and then later on decides he can only afford that raise to be $1.00 this time around, he has NOT cut your salary....

In a simplistic sense that's true, but if inflation is at the point where that dollar extra per year fails to cover the effects then in real terms the employer has reduced your paycheck. He's just been very sneaky about doing it.

He hasn't reduced your paycheck one bit. A promise to give you a raise once a year is just that a promise. It's not a grantee that you'll get one. That is unless it's in writing, then it's a contract. Been there had that happen, didn't like it.

drmiler

on Nov 27, 2004

Reply #22 By: little_whip - 11/27/2004 3:24:52 PM
BITCH, you have no fucking idea what ive fought my way through in this life, though many that have been reading my blog for the past 6 months do. I dont expect you to bother. I dont expect someone as shallow and narrow minded as yourself to take the fucking time to ever see me as anything or anyone but the "enemy," since youve already stated as much in your " I hate the GOP leadership" thread.

The title of that thread is a LIE, btw, because youve made it more than clear that its not just the leadership you hate, its every freaking Republican in ths nation, and in JU. You run your mouth all over the damn place and then blacklist anyone who just MIGHT present a decent rebuttal to your hysterical bullshit.

Im gonna fight this disease? Hah, what have YOU fought, dabe, other than your own demons that make you think anyone not on your side politically is a waste of flesh?

Oh dear, you had a "shithead" husband....My heart bleeds for ya, i had one that cut my damn throat, cracked my ribs so bad he almost punctured my heart, and kicked half my teeth out of my face, hows that for a shithead? I endured for 15 years before i could make a break..have you survived sich a thing? I have.

Ever slept on the street, literally? I have.

Ever overcome drug addiction? I have.

Ever had to break the law to buy health care you required to save your freaking life, and paid the price for it? I have.

Oh man, imma quit before i truly lose it, but dont you fucking tell ME about fighting a goddamn thing. Eat shit and die.

(my apologies to both heather and the mods, if i get sent to my room, so be it, i just cant stand this utter bitch another minute.)

I can see *dabe* "still" hasn't learned to shut up!

dabe

on Nov 27, 2004

Holy Shit, LW! You sure missed my point. But, ya know what? I'm not gonna bother going through it again.

dabe

on Nov 27, 2004

Education's purpose is education and nothing else. I'm not talking about times-tables or how to spell "subpoena". In my mind, education is about evolving, expanding, improving and unifying through diversity. Pigeonholing the new generation into the production line isn't going to help us grow. And it really won't make us safer, or do you disagree? I think the concept of productivity is important, but when a society places it on the pedestal with morality, or equates productivity with growth, we're going to have some serious problems, financially-speaking, and serious problems with safety, security, morality, and peace.

Wow! TBT, it's totally impossible to disagree with you here. Truth is, I'm just hoping I understand you. So please, help me out. My concern originally is that I feel that it is so short-sighted to defund the Pell Grants. We have governments, and we pay taxes for exactly this type of service, a boost up when needed to hopefully get us out of the mire of poverty. I needed it. I used it. I am no longer living in poverty. Good for me.

But, if someone merely wants the education for the education sake, even if government pays for a piece of it, that's not such a terrible thing either, as long as the person grows and improves and aims to stay sharp. However, as I said, the Pell Grants are intended to be used to give people a boost out of poverty, not necessary to merely provide intellectual growth. Yeah, it's kind of a contradiction, and yeah, I know that all who take advantage of such grants will not succeed. But, that does not mean the money was wasted. Not every cent the government will spend will go towards successful things. We all know that.

The Pell Grants have nothing to do with K-12, obviously, and that's not what this original discussion was about. There is no question that K-12 is education for education's sake, to a point, and beyond that point, hopefully it would provide the basis wherein a student would use that basis to further his/her education towards a lucrative livelihood. Pigeon-holing education into a production line mentality, under the premise of No Child Left Behind, is bound to fail. It's not about education for education's sake. It's about passing tests to get federal funding, and those testing procedures are causing all kinds of misery for even the best funded schools. I base this statement on a conversation I had yesterday with a teacher from a very wealthy school district. And if they are having problems, then you can be sure poor schools that need funding the most are the ones who are likely going to lose it because their kids couldn't pass some pigeon hole test.

Maybe I'm a bit self-serving in my argument in support of full funding for Pell grants and any other education grants and scholarships and whatever it takes to get motivated people back into school, because I myself benefitted from the program, but I don't think so. I merely speak out of first hand knowledge.

TaBooTenente

on Nov 27, 2004

Everyone's in a bad way, here, huh? The last few days I've seen a couple of burnouts.

I'm learning about this whole "thread hijacking" thing, and I hope I didn't do that with my earlier comments, heather, or with this one. Just let me know, okay? Your thread is interesting, which is why I have a bunch to say. I'll relocate if you'd prefer.

LW:

If im no longer able to put in 8 hours working for a mortgage broker, (which is what i did before last summer) how am i going to put in 8 hours doing anything else, like being a probation officer or other officer of the courts?

I feel bad that you have to think this way, LW. That's exactly my point. Why does education have to translate into productivity? Education is something that pays for itself in many ways, and does not need to translate into 40hr weeks.

Dabe:

My concern originally is that I feel that it is so short-sighted to defund the Pell Grants. We have governments, and we pay taxes for exactly this type of service, a boost up when needed to hopefully get us out of the mire of poverty. I needed it. I used it. I am no longer living in poverty. Good for me.

Yes, good for you, and you used the Pell exactly as it was intended.

But hold on.

Heather:

While I commend anyone who rises above the difficulties life has dealt them, giving credit to government programs diminishes that person's achievement

Why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why, why?
Why, again? What does education have to do with achievement? Everything. What does paying for education have to with achievement? Why?

I find it hard to imagine that there's much in this world or any other that is more important than education. Dabe wants to know whether she was justified using a Pell grant; LW feels like the money used for her degree was misspent tax dollars.

Why? Why does Dabe have to bother with Pell Grants in the first place? Why can't LW study for the sake of study? What is the point of productivity in the first place? Is it so we can wave flags and say "We're number one!" or is it so our children will live better than we do, be smarter than we are, see so much more of the truth than we do?

Pell grants: money for people who cannot afford education, for whatever reason. What a dismal, nauseous concept. Not the money; but that people can't afford education, or that education must lead to 8 more hours per week in the ole cubicle.

Hey Mr. and Mrs. So-and-So: What do you want most for your children? We want our children to live in a democratic free country where they are safe to produce 40, maybe 50, maybe 60 hr work weeks. God bless the USA and let freedom ring!

Productivity. It's good stuff, but it ain't no philosophy.

TBT

dabe

on Nov 27, 2004

Pell grants: money for people who cannot afford education, for whatever reason. What a dismal, nauseous concept. Not the money; but that people can't afford education, or that education must lead to 8 more hours per week in the ole cubicle.

TBT, you hit the nail right on the head. The crux of the entire matter. If ever there was anything that should be a right, not a privelege, to the point of socialism, then educcation should be socialized. No one should ever be deprived of an education, yet most of our society really is, either because they can't afford it, think they can't acheive it, feel undeserving, too ill, not ill enough, whatever. The point is, if you want an education, it should be there for the taking. That simple. I'd go so far as to say the same thing about health care, but that's a whole other topic.

As for productivity, sure it ain't no philosophy. But productivity is....... well........ productive. Being able to support yourself, maybe even your whole family, is more than just productive, though. It's elevating. It contributes immensely to one's self esteem. Add to that the ability to maybe do some good in our society, either by healing a sick person, protecting an endangered species, or removing the trash from a city street, and then getting paid for one's contribution to society at large isn't such a bad thing, is it? Productivity really isn't a bad word. However, having to produce for 50, 60, maybe 70 hours a week just to make ends meet is counterproductive. It's like destroying the goose that lays the golden egg. But, that's what our society demands from us now. Yeah, let freedom ring, and ring, and ring, till you're all rung out, and hung out to dry.

TBT, I appreciate your insight.

iamheather

on Nov 27, 2004

First let me thank everyone for the lively debate! I live for this type of free exchange of ideas. I am going to try to respond to everyone, now, but since I am still in considerable pain, I will probably keep it short. The only reason I am sitting in this chair now is because I just couldn't stand not being involved in this discussion.

LW

If your boss promises a $2.00 per hour raise each year, and then later on decides he can only afford that raise to be $1.00 this time around, he has NOT cut your salary....and this is whats going on with the Pell Grant situation. Reading dabes article, i found it quite ironic that someone who supposedly got a college education via these grants couldnt comprehend the difference, seems the taxpayer didnt get much for their money in her case, lol.

Hmm, so my R/A could go totally into remission (it does happen, for some) and i could be perfectly capable of working, but as long as im spending ADDITIONAL govt funds with one of these service providers, in addition to my monthly check, i could collect forever....damn, it might just take me 20 years to finish these college courses...hmm?

Thank you for pointing out the inherent abuses that can take place in the current structure of some government programs.

Dabe

Did you get the graph from a government site?

Yes, dabe, I did, as indicated by the words, "Prepared by the House Budget Committee." I deliberately tried to use non-debatable facts for my article as opposed to the subjective Times article you used. I prefer to draw my own conclusions and understanding from facts than to have the media or some rag interpret the implicaitons of a congressional action.

It's really how you look at the "cut", and whether it is really a "cut".

Perspective has nothing to do with it. A cut means less than before. All you have done is twist the facts to sound salacious and feed your anger.

Again, I'm sorry you were not able to post to my site. I'll get that fixed.

Thank you. I initially just wanted to add to the conversation, not hijack your thread and bring people here. I still wanted your article to receive traffic thus I linked to your article, so others would still read your thread.

. Maybe you really are a prime example of a deadbeat.

Dabe, this was completely unwarranted.

Maybe you didn't specifically say that only disabled people should have federal assistence, but you sure as shit implied it.

She neither said or implied any such thing. She just pointed to a loophole that some take advantage of.

heather, regarding what the increases/decreases actually mean to students. The article is posted here Link

Fascinating that you couldn't research and figure that out yourself by reading the actual legislation. Interesting too, that neither you nor the Times article addresses:

And for the first time, recipients of Pell Grants will be allowed to receive up to three grants a year. In the past, applicants only qualified for one grant a year.

Moderateman

a large thank you to iamheather for speaking {writeing} the truth about how the lunitics from the left twist anything to suit there purposes

Your welcome. That's my job!

Dabe

You'd take the money, and not work.

Maybe your hatred is blind for LW because that is not what she said. She mentioned that she would like to work and simply doesn't know when and if her RA will go into remission so that she may.

Heather, if you could please post a comment on one of my blog articles, I'd be able to tell if you are still having problems. I checked, and you're definitely not on my blacklist. Thanks.

Thank you, and yes I can now. I promise not to spout hatred and call people names on any of your articles. I like open-minded civil debate. I always learn something even if my views do not change.

drmiler

Exactly!

LW

my apologies to both heather and the mods, if i get sent to my room, so be it, i just cant stand this utter bitch another minute.)

No apology needed. Your comment was what I call "righteous indignation." Dabe had no idea to pretend to know what hardships you have endured. It was outrageous for her to insinguate that all you had to do was decide to fight the disease.

dabe

the Pell Grants are intended to be used to give people a boost out of poverty, not necessary to merely provide intellectual growth. Yeah, it's kind of a contradiction, and yeah, I know that all who take advantage of such grants will not succeed. But, that does not mean the money was wasted

Finally, something we agree on! As I said in an earlier comment, "Absolutely! I have been on government assistance before in my life. I would not ever advocate annihilation of welfare and government grants for education, but there has to be a limit."

Taboo

I hope I didn't do that with my earlier comments, heather, or with this one. Just let me know, okay? Your thread is interesting, which is why I have a bunch to say. I'll relocate if you'd prefer.

No problem. I love to just let conversations evolve wherever they go. I find it fascinating.

What does education have to do with achievement? Everything. What does paying for education have to with achievement?

I think you missed my point with that statement. I meant that why does the government have to get the credit for someone achieving their goal! Whatever that goal may be. In this case I was referring to someone's goal of an education. Receiving the education was the achievement in my statement.

Not the money; but that people can't afford education, or that education must lead to 8 more hours per week in the ole cubicle.

Wouldn't it be a nice "utopian" world if higher education were free! We could all go to college and get our degrees and do nothing else?Now our government provides free education for K-12, but that isn't enough for some people. Now they must pay for college. But you know, I don't just want a bachelor's degree. I want to enhance my intellect with a master's degree. It is my right as a human being. I want the government to pay for my master's degree too...(*sarcasm dripping from my lips*)

dabe

No one should ever be deprived of an education, yet most of our society really is, either because they can't afford it, think they can't acheive it, feel undeserving, too ill, not ill enough, whatever.

I will direct you to the above comment. I will again repeat, "Absolutely! I have been on government assistance before in my life. I would not ever advocate annihilation of welfare and government grants for education, but there has to be a limit."

Daiwa

on Nov 28, 2004

Thanks, heather, for the objective information on this topic that was needed.

The only thing I would add relates to dabe's comment that no one should ever be deprived of an education.

Last I checked, education was mandatory to age 16. Our society provides every child the opportunity to earn a high school diploma, something that, in theory and if taken proper advantage of, would prepare an individual sufficiently to survive and thrive on their own. I suppose it would be nice if higher education were made available to all, but it would frankly piss me off a bit, considering how I had to work 3 part-time jobs and put myself 8 years behind the earning curve of my peers (my friends who had gone into the work force right out of high school had bought & sold 2 or 3 houses by the time I could afford my first) to get that higher education. I would not want that kind of education devalued by giving it away. Society should provide a basic education for all of us. From there, it is up to us. Fortunately, very few people who truly value and thirst for a higher education are denied one. Our society is a generous one that enables that, through both public and private means.

Cheers,
Daiwa

iamheather

on Nov 28, 2004

frankly piss me off a bit, considering how I had to work 3 part-time jobs and put myself 8 years behind the earning curve of my peers (my friends who had gone into the work force right out of high school had bought & sold 2 or 3 houses by the time I could afford my first) to get that higher education. I would not want that kind of education devalued by giving it away. Society should provide a basic education for all of us. From there, it is up to us. Fortunately, very few people who truly value and thirst for a higher education are denied one.

Exactly Daiwa. I would feel a little pissed off too, I guess. I mean I worked my ass off to graduate 3rd in my class so I could get a scholarship. My parents were always very frank with me. I could not go to college unless I earned a scholarship.

I posted something similar to your comment to dabe:

Wouldn't it be a nice "utopian" world if higher education were free! We could all go to college and get our degrees and do nothing else?Now our government provides free education for K-12, but that isn't enough for some people. Now they must pay for college. But you know, I don't just want a bachelor's degree. I want to enhance my intellect with a master's degree. It is my right as a human being. I want the government to pay for my master's degree too...(*sarcasm dripping from my lips*)

Don't think I was quite as nice though....oops

cactoblasta

on Nov 28, 2004

Well that's largely the case in Australia (we pay about US$3000 a semester max due to subsidies and Gov-sponsered loans), but most Masters and PhD candidates work as tutors and lecturers whilst they study and don't solely rely on federal funding. Their education costs are covered through government subsidies, but they still pay for other costs. Perhaps that's why education is Australia's 4th biggest export. Free education has the added bonus that people don't feel like they are 'paying' to get a degree - students are much more likely to accept a fail without making legal difficulties if it doesn't actually cost them anything. Australian lecturers often complain about the numbers of morons they have to pass purely because otherwise the money they bring would be lost.

dabe

on Nov 28, 2004

Wheter you work ten jobs or three; whether the government pays for the education or not, in no way determines the value of an education. An education isn't a bicycle, or a TV, or a car. It's an education, a broadening of the mind, an increasing ability to support yourself and your family, an exercise in developing one's abiltity for free thinking and making educated and rational decisions. How could an education possibly be worth less because you obtained it free of charge? What about scholarships based soley on need? Do they provide a devalued education, just because it wasn't earned? I just don't see how it can possibly be measured that way.

dabe

on Nov 28, 2004

And one more thing..... just because an education may be provided by the government, either wholey or in part, I would not expect a degree to be given lightly. I would continue to support the notion that a degree is earned, wherein you worked hard at your coursework, completed your assignments, papers, labs, tests, etc. to the satisfaction of an appropriate educational standard. Accomplishing that is not easy. It takes time, effort, brains, and grit. The outcome would presumably be not only a mind educated in a specific discipline, but one also broadened by the experience.

iamheather

on Nov 28, 2004

For dabe, I repeat what I said earlier:

No one is devaluing anyone's education. But a line has to be drawn somewhere! So tell me, if the government pays for everyone's free college tuition, too, then do they also get to determine what is taught? If so....awfully close to some fallen socialist and communist societies of the past. Do we really want to go there?

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